Your Ultimate Goal Piece

The art and science of piano performance and technique

Postby citrine_peridot » 20 Mar 2005, 14:49

Brewtality wrote:
Brewtality wrote:Dream Pieces:
Rach 1
Rach 3
Rach 2
Tchaik 1
all with orchestra (chances :roll: )
Heroic Polonaise

Realistic goals for next 6 months:
Stars and stripes forever
Rondo Capriccioso
Appassionata first movement
heroic polonaise


Finished all of those realistic pieces.
Working on some Chopin etudes : 25/6 and 25/11, the rest of Appassionata, Grand Galop Chromatique. Hopefully will start the Rach 1 before the end of the year. I'd add the Henselt Concerto, Alkan Symph and Festin to the Dream list and remove the Rach 2 and Tchaik 1 from it.


poloanise in A-flat !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!are there any posibilities of you post a recording of that ???????? (and the appassionata)
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Postby Brewtality » 20 Mar 2005, 18:23

Unfortunately not at the moment, i don't have a microphone. When I get one I will be faced with the problem of not knowing how to use it (i am incredibly technologically challenged) :(
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Postby Helling » 20 Mar 2005, 22:53

Brewtality wrote:Working on some Chopin etudes : 25/6 and 25/11, the rest of Appassionata, Grand Galop Chromatique.


The Grand Galop Chromatique is a fun piece to play, good luck with that. I actually used to play it for a while to end concerts (in true Liszt copycat fashion) until I heard Cziffra's steroid version which made my own version seem boring so I stopped playing it. ;)
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Postby Scriabinist » 21 Mar 2005, 13:30

I want to learn these by summer:

-Bach's 3rd English suite
-A Beethoven sonata (Probably Op. 90)

(though I'm afraid I'll get bored with them before I even get to learning them. It has happened before.)
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Postby citrine_peridot » 21 Mar 2005, 14:58

Brewtality wrote:Unfortunately not at the moment, i don't have a microphone. When I get one I will be faced with the problem of not knowing how to use it (i am incredibly technologically challenged) :(

come on, you can always use your dad's camera(what i did), or using cell phone(the sound quality will be pure crap) , or the last choice : first record it using tape recorder then play it back beside your computer 's microphone ~~~~~~~~~~~~

hold on, if your computer is really close to your piano, you can first turn on the recording stuff(don't know what it's called) then run back to your piano and starting playing~~~~~~~~~~~the microphone might *hear* that . (i gonna try this some time. )

just some common sense
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Postby Max » 21 Mar 2005, 17:32

Helling wrote:
Brewtality wrote:Working on some Chopin etudes : 25/6 and 25/11, the rest of Appassionata, Grand Galop Chromatique.


The Grand Galop Chromatique is a fun piece to play, good luck with that. I actually used to play it for a while to end concerts (in true Liszt copycat fashion) until I heard Cziffra's steroid version which made my own version seem boring so I stopped playing it. ;)


Thats the reason why I am never going to perform the GGC, or Rhapsodie Espagnole. :)
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Postby Jeliness2 » 21 Mar 2005, 18:01

Goldberg wrote:Ehh...haha, most mothers cower in disgust in horror at the idea of ME dating their daughters!! Congrats on the recital, btw. One of these days, Jeff, you're just going to randomly explode because of a talent overload. Everyone will wonder what the "pop!" was from the piano area, but they might not want to disturb you so it could take a while for someone to notice. I wonder what your last piece will be...

On a serious note...sort of...what will your concerto be? Not too long ago, I found a really enjoyable, jazzy sort of concerto by Easton called "Concerto on Australian Themes" or something (I can get you more info if you're interested). It's sort of Gerswhin-esque in a way, but not overly so, and very gushy and Romantic, easy to listen to and play but still virtuostic. Plus, it's relatively unknown, at least as far as I am aware.


Thanks, but, I really don't think so. Atleast not yet :twisted: . lol
Anyway, I think my teacher said she'll start me out with a Mozart or Haydn piano concerto. I still have no idea. lol

And I've not heard of that concerto. Are you playing it now?
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Postby Goldberg » 21 Mar 2005, 18:29

citrine_peridot wrote:
Brewtality wrote:Unfortunately not at the moment, i don't have a microphone. When I get one I will be faced with the problem of not knowing how to use it (i am incredibly technologically challenged) :(

come on, you can always use your dad's camera(what i did), or using cell phone(the sound quality will be pure crap) , or the last choice : first record it using tape recorder then play it back beside your computer 's microphone ~~~~~~~~~~~~

hold on, if your computer is really close to your piano, you can first turn on the recording stuff(don't know what it's called) then run back to your piano and starting playing~~~~~~~~~~~the microphone might *hear* that . (i gonna try this some time. )

just some common sense


Not all computers have built-in mics, though (unless Brewtality stated elsewhere that his does?).

Jeliness: I've only played the concerto so far on iTunes, heh...actually, it wouldn't be my first choice for a concerto, but I think I remember you talking about Gerswhin and perhaps Kapustin or...whatever his name is...in the sense that you liked that kind of music (that is, jazzy...I don't mean that in a negative way; in fact, I love jazz as well). Really, I just wanted to get the name out a little to try and see if anyone was interested in it.

Mozart concerti rock, though!
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Postby Jeliness2 » 21 Mar 2005, 18:35

:-) Yes they do. :-)

And Gershwin is one of my favorites. heh, His piano concerto is my second favorite piano concerto.
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Postby Goldberg » 21 Mar 2005, 20:00

What's your first?...or have you already said so? hmm..
One should either be a work of art, or wear a work of art.
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Postby Brewtality » 21 Mar 2005, 20:28

Goldberg wrote:
citrine_peridot wrote:
Brewtality wrote:Unfortunately not at the moment, i don't have a microphone. When I get one I will be faced with the problem of not knowing how to use it (i am incredibly technologically challenged) :(

come on, you can always use your dad's camera(what i did), or using cell phone(the sound quality will be pure crap) , or the last choice : first record it using tape recorder then play it back beside your computer 's microphone ~~~~~~~~~~~~

hold on, if your computer is really close to your piano, you can first turn on the recording stuff(don't know what it's called) then run back to your piano and starting playing~~~~~~~~~~~the microphone might *hear* that . (i gonna try this some time. )

just some common sense


Not all computers have built-in mics, though (unless Brewtality stated elsewhere that his does?).


I don't think it does, i can't see one on it anywhere. In any case, my comp is on a different floor from my piano.
As for the GGC, Cziffra had scared me off learning it until i heard Bolet's recording and realised it didn't need to be so fast to sound good (although this would be preferable)
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Postby Goldberg » 21 Mar 2005, 21:02

What?? Unheard of! This entire time, I've believed through-and-through that the only way the GGC is worth anything is if it is played *at least* 3/4s of Cziffra's tempo, and then if it's pulled of correctly, it's actually quite a good piece, to the extent of most showpieces I suppose. If that isn't the case, I absolutely must hear Bolet's recording of it.

I heard...eh...Howard's?...I think...if it was indeed Howard, it seems like he played it almost ridiculously slow, as if he were trying to inflict some sort of profound musicality in the piece or something. Of course, it could hardly have been more boring. Maybe if I hadn't heard Cziffra's recording beforehand...

But then again, I doubt it would be different. Howard's complete set is a huge mixed bag, and people with more credibility than I have have also criticised him for playing certain pieces with "too much" musicality and not enough excitement and daring. Just look at his La Clochette Fantasy...

Sorry, that was rather off-topic...
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Postby Helling » 21 Mar 2005, 22:34

Goldberg wrote:What?? Unheard of! This entire time, I've believed through-and-through that the only way the GGC is worth anything is if it is played *at least* 3/4s of Cziffra's tempo, and then if it's pulled of correctly, it's actually quite a good piece, to the extent of most showpieces I suppose. If that isn't the case, I absolutely must hear Bolet's recording of it.

I heard...eh...Howard's?...I think...if it was indeed Howard, it seems like he played it almost ridiculously slow, as if he were trying to inflict some sort of profound musicality in the piece or something. Of course, it could hardly have been more boring. Maybe if I hadn't heard Cziffra's recording beforehand...

But then again, I doubt it would be different. Howard's complete set is a huge mixed bag, and people with more credibility than I have have also criticised him for playing certain pieces with "too much" musicality and not enough excitement and daring. Just look at his La Clochette Fantasy...

Sorry, that was rather off-topic...


Maybe we should make a new topic for this discussion, but it is rather interesting. I have most of Howard's recordings and I agree with the uneven quality. At times it seems he is holding back on purpose, and he has an odd way of relating to certain pieces - as if he is trying to "save" Liszt's pieces from shallow entertainment even in cases where they are meant to be entertainment. Strangely enough, he does the opposite in other pieces that are actually meant to be profound, and rushes through them too quickly (e.g. many of Liszt's later works and the sonata).

The paganini etudes suffer from the "too slow and profound" problem, as does the clochette fantasy which is probably his worst recording of the entire set.

I actually think Cziffra's grand galop chromatique has a completely contrary problem of being too fast, but the problem is that really fast recordings (correct or not) still make other recordings seem boring to most people who want "piano excitement". It is the same thing with pieces such as la campanella and feux follets, which are always taken faster than they should be according to the score. However, the problem is that a "correct" interpretation is only looked upon as someone not being able to play faster, not as some honest and intentionally slow interpretation.

To associate to the discussion, a goal piece would probably be the clochette fantasy, since I haven't heard a good interpretation of it yet. However, the boring looking sheet music (boring in the sense of "put as many notes in as possible as soon as a finger on any hand is free) put me off from learning it so far.
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Postby Jeliness2 » 21 Mar 2005, 23:04

Goldberg wrote:What's your first?...or have you already said so? hmm..


Rachmaninoff 2. hehehe :roll:
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Postby Goldberg » 22 Mar 2005, 00:00

Eric: not to mention the fact that the music itself only has a handful of truly interesting moments, even if you take into account the "empty virtuosity." I love the introduction, however. I just feel that the "variations" on La Campanella are poorly developed and executed in general. It was once perfectly described to me as "overlong," I believe.

That said, I think I once told you that I'm fascinated by the piece almost entirely because of the historical significance of it; that is to say, it falls in the category of early Liszt pieces, and provides a good example of how Liszt composed music and used his technique as a late teenager. Of course, I can't say I know as much about those things as you, but the idea is intriguing.

Indeed, the bit about the GGC and speed is an interesting subject, but right now I can't seem to add much more to the "fire." I think there needs to be a certain balance in a pianist's ability to *be able to be* showy and even recklessly daring, as Cziffra tended to be, but to a greater extent, of course he also needs to have the poetical and lyrical nature. Still, for the most part, my argument stands that there is a small percentage of pieces reserved for high-velocity thrills with no *real* relationship to what you might loosely refer to as "artistic music." Of course, the ability to be wild and fast and showy is to be considered trivial to having and conveying an understanding of music, harmonies, and the more exceptional qualities of the art. But at the end of the day, a little bit of a rush every now and then is healthy, and pieces like the GGC are, in my opinion, reserved for that. And they feel the role very nicely.

Oh, and aside from that, I must say that the GGC should only be attempted at Cziffra's tempo if the pianist can PLAY it at Cziffra's tempo. His recordings of the piece are amazing not only because of his speed but accuracy (and, of course, excitement); I recognise that as being quite important as well, that in these "reserved for speed" pieces I'm talking about, the pianists should only play the pieces as fast as they can, while still hitting a wide majority of correct notes, and making the piece comphrensible to the audience.

Just a few thoughts, nothing really new though.

Jeff: good concerto! Why don't you learn that one?...
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You know, some people just have natural talents-like some people play the piano but aren't very tall.
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